Different Strokes for Different... Tanks? AOE Tankadin misinformation

[Matt]

I see a lot of posts from semi-new paladin tanks here hoping to be, or currently being, Main Tanks for their guild. The gear and stat recommendations in response are, IMO, reflecting that type of tanking specifically - which is fine, but not what I'm looking for, nor is what I consider good advice to most paladins looking to fill the role of AoE tank, Trash Tank, etc. So, my gearing situation:

I'm guild leader of a BT/Hyjal guild that recently lost their Prot pally to a new game, and am currently gearing my paladin up to be the new pally tank. I hit 70 3 days ago. My gear has rocketed from nothing to being able to AOE tank Kara with only 2 pvp specced healers behind me. I've been farming heroics, and am close to the point of being able to tank Hyjal. However, I'm at a crossroads at deciding specifically what pieces to pick up (I have 2 gearlists) and what to enchant.

This decision is being held up by trying to decide what stat to focus on. Most high-end pally tanks I've seen stack stamina. This is a wonderful idea for a MT-type paladin, but from the numbers I've been able to crunch offhand it seems like Shield Block Value would be worth MUCH more, for a paladin that doesn't plan on tanking bosses.

So my dilemma is this: do I play cookie-cutter, stack stam, and hope my healers can keep up with what damage I do take? Do I focus on getting as much shield block value as I can without sacrificing too many other stats? Or should I go all out, attempt to make a "passive uncrushability" set - and let me elaborate, I understand non-boss mobs will not crush, however if I could push 102.4% to dodge/block/parry/miss, every hit from every mob I'm AoE tanking will be a block - which would make for a retarded amount of damage absorb while aoe tanking. The second two options make the most sense, (I'm very against tanks just stacking stam - imo, the tanks job is to take less damage, not just spongue it up and let the healers do that part of your job for you) but is an "uncrushable" type set possible with paladins? Would it be worth giving up 2-3k HP to gain it? Again, it makes excellent sense that it would., however I see next to nobody that gears accordingly.

To give a rough idea of "why" for those of you that can't picture it, 2-3k HP lead from stacking stam can easily disappear in a matter of seconds while aoe tanking, and is used only as a 3-4 second buffer (again this is not for boss tanking). Upping shield block to around 800, assuming a moderately geared stam-stacking pally has ~500 shield block value, *EVERY* holy shield you activate will be worth another 2.4k hp, the same for every redoubt, and every 'normal' block worth another 300 hp. As you can see, the longer the fight, the more mobs, the more SBV pays off.

However, somebody with 102.4% passive avoidance will *ONLY* ever block, and will never be hit otherwise by melee (<--- key). This person will absorb appx. 600 every single hit, reducing every potential hit of 1000 to 400. This build will not only allow you a *CONSTANT* additional 60% damage reduction, but will also increase your avoidance over other gear builds as well due to the amount of dodge/parry this setup will have over other gear setups... probably an additional 15-20%. Estimated stats would sit around 45% dodge/parry/miss, 55% block. This setup would likely take, just by glancing at it and estimating, around 25% of the total damage a stamina stacking paladin tank would take.

If I'm off my rocker let me know, but just glancing at this the only reason I could possibly see for paladin tanks not to be doing this right now are: Healers that pick up the slack, uneducated in game mechanics, or just plain too lazy to do the math. Does this make sense to anyone else?

NOTE: As an added bonus/additional note, with a full "passive uncrushability set", when Ardent Defender activates damage taken per hit will drop from 400, to 50. The key thing to note about this Ardent Defender gains *substantially* more benefit the more often you block. This turns the "35%" reduction from AD to an effective 87.5% damage reduction... much better than shield wall. And each point of shield block will increase this to the point of "infinte return", or 0 damage taken below 35% hp... full blocking at 100% block chance (sans dodge/parry/miss). If I'm incorrect on this, please explain why.

[backseat]

i'd love for you to be right. and i'd love for this to spread to paladin MT as well. i am not a warrior, damn it!

[Ed Hamilton]

Hi Matt and welcome.

   I'm actually one of the newbie tanks!  But I think I've gotten a lot of good advice here.  But there are so many different opinions.  I 100 percent agree with your take on stanima.  A pally tank can't gear like a warrior and needs stuff like intellect and spirit as well!  But I don't have the math answers and go by this simplified version for gear and stats:  http://se7en-samurai.blogspot.com/2008/06/tankadin-gear-for-dummies.html . It tells you that this is the order of importance when looking for gear:   
1. Defense
2. Avoidance
3. Stamina
4. Armor
5. Spell Damage & Intellect

Interesting though, that spell damage I find pretty important to hold aggro, but the theory goes if you stack the higher stuff in the list you will generally get the others.  Currently at level 57 I will soon be looking for "of the sorcerer" stuff which is much more suitable for pally tanks then just stacking stanima.  Krick will probably answer you.  You can get answers from experience from him and several others here.

[Matt]

Thanks for your response. What you say makes sense, for tanking around your level. Also somewhat for Main Tanking at 70 - at about any gear level. However the underlying point of my post is, I strongly believe that different tanking 'jobs' require different gear. Stacking stamina (past your def. cap) does make sense for boss tanking, MT'ing, etc. The point I'm trying to make, and question I'm trying to get answered is: Is stamina stacking really the best idea for aoe trash tanking? I have read several guides, and several give you an "order of importance" as far as stats. All of them were different. I am challenging the authors of those guides to disprove my logic, and asking the rest of the paladin community to at least give the idea a bit of thought, without dismissing it because it hasn't been written down elsewhere in a guide. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Good luck on your way to 70 Ed =)

[Jordan Pacheco]

As far as trash tanking goes, i go in this order: (assuming I am already at 490)

1.  Shield Block- (If you're dead, spell damage doesnt matter much, lol)
2.  Spell Damage- (Keep that aggro off your crazy locks and mages, big boy!)
3.  Stamina- (Try to make your healers' lives a little easier)

We have different equipment for different roles, and stacking stam for bosses makes sense, but wearing that set for aoe trash doesn't.   

[Robert]

i think your question becomes about effective health.

check out http://www.tankspot.com/forums/warrior-reference/1060-effective-health-theory.html

there is even an addendum that covers shield block value, and this article, though skewed for a warrior applies to tankadins as well.  it will be even more important if in fact we move towards block value in the next expansion.

[steve]

Never done hyjal honestly. but dragonhawk is much the same with 2 waves of aoe trash. since you don't have to worry about being crushed Libram of the Eternal Rest is a much better libram as a side note.

[Matt]

I understand your gearing priorities for stats, but shooting for a "passive uncrushability" set is a lot more than just prioritizing your item stats. Calculating gear and gemslots to hit 102.4% avoidance exactly, then stacking shield block value (or stam) is what I'm talking about/thinking about trying. Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. Sorry just frusterating.

Edit: Just playing around with gear on Warcrafter Sandbox, I cranked out a gearlist with over 111% avoidance, I'll have to work hard to make a gearlist that allows 102.4% for an early Hyjal/BT tank but I'm sure I can do it.

[Ed Hamilton]

Just a dumb question, why do you want to hit 102.4% exactly?  What if your 103.8%?  Seems like good enough to me but I may be missing something.

[Martin]

To Answer Ed's Question: 102.4% avoidance is "uncrushable". Therefore stopping any crushing blows a tank could acquire on bosses Like Nightbane and Prince in Kara. 103.8 is ok, but the extra avoidance is unnecessary and could be better spent on other stats. Correct me if im wrong, thats just what I've picked up here

[Jordan Pacheco]

Uncrush is great and if you are trying to hit 102.4 exactly, then wonderful.  But why are you trying to do it all with one gear set?  If I'm making my aoe/block set, uncrush isnt at the top of my list.  490 def is, shield block is, spell damage is and then stam is.

From what I understand, AOE tanking at uncrush is fine and all, but it is unnecessary.  If I can sub out stats to increase aggro in terms of raw spell damage and block to create more aggro, then thats what I'm going to do.  If I have the wiggle room, I'll stam up a bit. 

Save the 102.4 for the bosses and stuff meng.

[Matt]

The tank has 2 purposes.
1. Hold Threat
2. Take Less Damage

99% of all tanks ignore number 2, and healers suffer because of it.

I understand the purpose of uncrushability for bosstanking... to not get crushed. That's not why I'm considering it. The purpose here is to take substantially less damage while AOE Tanking. The mechanics of uncrushability sets mean you never get hit, every hit on you is a block - on a boss that's fine and you block like 600 of a 5k hit. However, on AOE mobs they only hit for 800-1000, if that. If you can block 600 of *EVERY* hit, completely eliminating the 'non blocked' 1k hits that normal pally tanks take, you will take next to no damage. Likewise, when ardent defender pops at 35%, if you are guaranteed to *never* be hit, you could possibly FULL BLOCK every single hit from every single trash mob you are tanking - making you theoretically invincible until your shield hits 0 durability.

Most AOE tanks just stack stamina and hope their healers can pick up the slack. A warlock can stamina stack and AOE tank too, what would be the difference? The benefit a paladin has is the *ability* to take less damage... why not abuse that ability?

[Jordan Pacheco]

I think most newer tanks aren't as confident in their toon's ability to mitigate the damage.  What eople will not argue with, however is that the more we block, the more threat we gain, making the pulls quicker, allowing the dps to go all out.  Again, reemphasizing that 490 is needed so you dont get crit by these mobs, but 102.4 is not for aoe trash.  I think it just so happens that we stack so damn much block we make 102.4 anyway.  If the spell damage at 450 is already adequate enough, why stack more? 

Stam makes sense to stack in this case because our block rating and our spell damage is adequate.  For chain pulling we are like warlocks.  Our health pools are indirectly our mana pools.  Sure it makes sense to want to full block everything... but you won't be getting hit enough to get a return from heals on your spiritual attunement, leading you to not have mana, which means your gun just ran out of bullets and you got a bunch of dead dpsers.

Everything in this game has its place and for tankadins we have the most unique balancing act of all the tanking classes and possibly any class in the game in terms of stats we need.  But if I am running around a heroic with 12k health and a ton of block, expect me to be drinking after EVERY single pull.  If i got some stam, I can chain pull, ignore holy shield a few times get beat up a bit and get healed.  Sure you could do that with your full block set, but if making life ewasier on your healer is in fact a priority, then a larger health pool does in fact play into that line of thinking.

[Ed Hamilton]

From more of a newbie, you guys are really helping me understand.  And to Matt, you know, even as a newbie I can see that stanima is not your first priority to stack and even more so in reading these posts.  I think some of the guides you've seen are a little hoe-key...lol.  I think I've read some of them!  But for someone who isn't 70, I can see writing simplistically or practically and telling people to stack stam.  But that is not the ultimate goal.  Get that 102.4% avoidance and keep your shield up!  That is the true goal!  (I think i read you guys right). 

[Jordan Pacheco]

Well, it's one of the goals.  For pallies, we are true multipurpose machines.  When a warrior or a druid walks up to a pull, all they see is an order in which things need to be killed.  One at a time.  LOL!  For me as a tankadin, I see every damn pull as an aoe pull.  Everything in Kara = aoe.  Clearing the blacksmith?  AOE.  Spell shades?  AOE.  Flesh beasts?  AOE.

My point?  102.4 is a goal for your boss tanking set, not your aoe set.  What I think people are getting confused about is that 102.4 is NOT required for trash, or in our case, AOE pulls.  So here is where you want to make sure of: you are over 490 defense, you stack your shield block and spell damage for more threat. (I've found that I'm happy at 450 sd.) and the rest pound out into stamina.  When it comes to bosses, I throw on my 102.4 set, even though I probably don't need to.  But its a habit and I need to get better at managing my mana in that set for the bigger bosses.

The point is that as pallies we have different pulls, so different gear is needed.  You need a high spell damage set for void-reaver, you need a high block/spell damage set for aoe tanking, you need a 102.4 set for big bosses in addition to any resistance sets a specific fight may call for like in SSC.  For warriors and druids, they dont have that issue.  SO!!! Buy big bags and start collecting!

HI-YAH!